Today we wit down with John Dehlin, host of Mormon Stories and Pioneer who blazed the trail into historical transparency regarding Mormon History and Social Dysfuntion using the internet as the vehicle. His podcast pioneered a new phase in Mormonism where Scholars talked openly and and the Church could be held accountable for its unhealthiness.
We sit down with author, Spencer Wright, to talk about Logical Fallacies. We will examine a few ways in which certain fallacies are used in Mormonism and help the viewer/listener grasp how irrational certain apologetic arguments are. How Mormon Apologists carefully move the person investigating truth claims and history to making room for anything that it possible even if that thing is highly unlikely and do so in ways that one feels comfortable maintaining belief even though that belief may be irrational.
Spencer Wright is the author of the book, “How To Think: Why Rational and Faith Based Thinking Are In Compatible”
Spencer’s Book “How To Think” https://www.amazon.com/How-Think-Spencer-K-Wright/dp/1986747069
Mormonism has placed each believer into having to choose which Prophets you believe and which Prophets you don’t. Choosing which Prophets are right about the views they hold claiming they got them from God and which prophets were simply wrong claiming something came from God when it must surely be their own false view since the views are contradictory. In the end the disagreement seems so obviously contradictory that one must choose one claim over the other which leaves them dismissing a prophet and having that prophet apparently unable to discern between the voice of God and his own false imagination. And once you admit that prophets and those who place faith in them are no more able to discern truth from error via the Holy Ghost…… Then how does one navigate with certainty about their own spiritual knowings and those of the prophets when one could be misled this easily. And the Cherry on top is the LDS Church’s continued Deception around the issue including misleading members by articulating the issue as if Brigham didn’t teach it through their talks, the Church manuals, and private letters demanding silence.
Recently a few regional conferences came to our attention where LDS Leaders said things that seem to run counter to the truth. We touch on those today and take your calls on Mormonism LIVE !
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1.) We discuss Video Footage of Elder Holland and Sister Cordon claiming the Cordon’s don’t have any wealth to an audience made up in part by the poor in Africa. Which is a deceptive statement since Derek Cordon was with Omniture when they were bought out by adobe for 1.8 Billion and They live in a Million Dollar Home
2.) We discuss Video Footage of Elder Holland explaining how the Church is always behind and playing catch up with the world.
3.) We discuss footage from Elder Bednar claiming once again that Missionary work is growing and increasing and the producing incredible results.
A lot happened this past Sunday in Mormonism. Natasha Helfer had a disciplinary court and later in the week was excommunicated. And Kwaku coming off of our interview attempted to drive people to video drudging up old allegations against John Dehlin but encasing it in a bait and switch put over on people as “My apology to John Dehlin”. We tackle both of those as well as some looking back at last weeks conversation with Kwaku and some of the things he said and if they hold up to critical thinking.
As RFM prepared for last weeks episode on Miner’s Hill he came across some things in regards to Joseph Smith’s treasure Digging that you won’t want to miss.
Mormonism LIVE ! Tonight has multiple bombshells with one of them being YUGE! Like blew my mind HUUUUGE. These are all things almost everyone doesn’t know with the major bombshell absolutely being unknown to everyone and a game changer.1.) Who with and where did Joseph Smith dig specifically for the Gold plates before Cumorah? and before 1823? 2.) Proof the Church is still not being transparent with damaging documents even on its Joseph Smith Papers Project Website. They are still trying to avoid believers confronting the facts and keeping data from a believer accessing such..3.) We take the Apologist’s strongest evidence of the Book of Mormon and show a much more reasonable contemporary example in Joseph Smith’s milieu.4.) AND THE BIGGEST BOMBSHELL OF THEM ALL WHICH WE WILL UNVEIL ON THE SHOW TONIGHT………. YOU WON’T WANT TO MISS THIS.
Faculty of Abrac – https://twitter.com/shuffard/status/1294357248546951169/photo/1
W W Phelps letter to Eber D Howe – http://www.solomonspalding.com/NEWSP/HOWE/Ex04a.htm
Transcript of Joseph Knight Sr’s Recollection – https://byustudies.byu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/17.1JesseeJoseph.pdf
Brian Hales website showing the section of Oliver Cowdery’s letter to his brother Warren displaying the SCRAPE/AFFAIR – https://josephsmithspolygamy.org/oliver-cowdery-letter-to-warren-a-cowdery-olivers-brother-january-21-1838/
Joseph Smith Papers Project not being transparent about the letter – https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/letter-from-oliver-cowdery-21-january-1838/1
The full letter book including the Oliver/Warren Cowdery Letter about the Alger Scrape/Affair – https://mormonpolygamydocuments.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/JSP_Book_91.pdf
Nahum VS Nahom VS NHM – https://historyofmormonism.com/2012/11/14/newel-knight/
Nahum’s dissapearance – https://byustudies.byu.edu/article/they-are-my-friends-a-history-of-the-joseph-knight-family-18251850/
LDS Church’s Changing Narrative around the Translation Process – https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VZkKUmC-cjB_DnqWp9HHyW7v677e4IlUQORHn6ydOyA/edit?fbclid=IwAR3bbWLgmhXrMOq2vQxzDkN-bW3kbpJVE1-FcHLWm-tVYNmwPn3gtNx1hbc
How prevalent was Joseph Smith’s treasure digging? Where all did Joseph Smith dig for treasures. What do we know about these treasure seeking sites? What do the historical sources tell us about these treasure digs? Black Sheep, Gold Furniture, Sacred scripture translated inside these man dug caves.
KC Kern & Greg Pavone Miner’s Hill Project Website 1 – https://archival.link/mormoncave/story?fbclid=IwAR0GLubkK_y8lfDciIgs2vYPHtnX9fkigPX0O5IA5QekS1aULryUM_q9xHA
KC Kern & Greg Pavone Miner’s Hill Project Website 2 – https://imgur.com/gallery/pRGJl?fbclid=IwAR1oN3pmDljsTA1w5TBndASDxTf648P6nCuVVnj3iRqVVpfRg8IERY2YftY
Dan Vogel’s The Locations of Joseph Smith’s Early Treasure Quests https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2020/03/VogelTreasuredigs.pdf?fbclid=IwAR1fHa7pfUtaf7CTlEhS-hvHSKCWIFXlig0t_AARJ_OxtELfWBS59LvpqMI
Historical Sources Related to Miner’s Hill Cave https://archival.link/mormoncave/sources?fbclid=IwAR2WXX-gYTmXB_Qn6cnonpqQ-lfDHlMri4g-2veT1SIgMhufxtDGjHSQIoI
Cumorah’s Cave PDF https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1360&context=jbms&fbclid=IwAR3HMObEXTYBVCOxZI5Jqx796yaOWu5hbFWlbKkvwAzdGpTNiWX5QSHcgiM
On tonight’s episode RFM and Bill Reel dive further into the Mark Hofmann story exposing Elder Oaks and at the time Elder Gordon B. Hinckley as potentially deceiving and lying about what transpired in their meeting with Hofmann and their efforts to obtain what they believed were authentic and also damaging documents to the Church’s narrative and the faith of its members. Bill concludes with revealing multiple never before seen documents including the Hofmann’s outline for the forged 116 pages of the book of Lehi, Hofmann’s Psychological evaluation, his education report cards, and a master list of all the signatures/authored documents he forged of famous people.
Elder Oaks 1985 talk that includes much around the Hofmann affair including suggesting a Salamander could be interpreted as the angel Moroni – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hAL-qLOISs
Elder Oaks suggesting if we keep the commandments we won’t be deceived while the listener recognizes Elder Oaks, then Elder Gordon B Hinckley, and other leaders were in fact deceived by Hofmann – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hAL-qLOISs
Elder Oaks saying way too much about the Hofmann ordeal that in the end compromises the events as he tells them https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1987/10/recent-events-involving-church-history-and-forged-documents?lang=eng
Using a recent video published by the LDS Church titled “How Can It Not Be True”, RFM and Bill Reel take this short 1 minute and 15 second video that attempts to impose faulty evidence and faulty reasoning as proving the Church is true and decimate it. When they are finished, answering the question How can it not be true becomes quite easy.
How Can It Not Be True – LDS VIdeo – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvxH24aPkTQ
Chris Johnson – Stylistic Drift – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAGasQ7j_ZI
Christopher Smith – Stylistic Drift – http://www.withoutend.org/stylistic-drift-book-mormon-dictation/
Terrence Chambers – New Testament Phrases in the Book of Mormon – http://www.iosrjournals.org/iosr-jhss/papers/Vol.%2022%20Issue2/Version-1/R220201120147.pdf
Book of Mormon Anachronisms – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anachronisms_in_the_Book_of_Mormon
Criticism of the Book of Mormon – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_the_Book_of_Mormon
19th century material in the Book of Mormon – https://www.churchistrue.com/blog/19th-century-protestant-phrases-in-book-of-mormon/
Book of Mormon Archeology – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeology_and_the_Book_of_Mormon
Faithful LDS Scholar Richard Bushman on 19th century material in the Book of Mormon – https://faenrandir.github.io/a_careful_examination/bushman-on-19th-century-phrasing-and-theology-in-the-book-of-mormon/
Richard Bushman on Joseph Smith producing pseudepigrapha – https://www.missedinsunday.com/memes/scripture/mormon-pseudepigrapha/
synopsis of Grant Palmer’s Insider’s view of Mormon Origins – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Insider%27s_View_of_Mormon_Origins
Grant Palmer’s Mormon Stories Interview – https://www.mormonstories.org/podcast/mormon-stories-030-031-032-and-033-an-insiders-view-of-mormon-origins-an-interview-with-grant-palmer/
The Dreams of the Smith Family – Contains Joseph Smith Sr.’s dream that resembles the Vision of the Tree of Life – https://sunstonemagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/064-22-29.pdf
Introduction to the Grammatical and Substantive changes to the Book of Mormon – http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/3913intro.htm
Using a recent article in the Church Magazine “Liahona” (Formerly the Ensign) published by the LDS Church, RFM and Bill Reel dissect whether the Church acts in good faith with how it imposes its narrative and who it blames when that narrative is pointed out as not accurate. When the Church is informed that it is being inaccurate how does the Church respond, both in its rhetoric in terms of who it blames for the problem and what it says it will do about the problem, as well as what it actually does to correct the problem. The Video version of this episode and all other episodes can be found on youtube at this url https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5n_8_6j00PSeju0hu2CFXQ
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Even after saying they will correct the problem of inaccurate art depictions they again in 2021 display a deeply inaccurate artistic depiction. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/2021/01/what-greater-witness-can-you-have-than-from-god?lang=en
There are five rules to the game of Mormonism; all of them from the perspective of church leaders:
Rule No. 1–We are going to hide stuff from you.
Rule No. 2–We are going to try to keep you from finding the stuff we are hiding from you.
Rule No. 3–We are going to lie about hiding stuff from you.
Rule No. 4–You can’t blame us for hiding stuff from you.
Rule No. 5–If you talk about the stuff we are hiding from you, we will hide you. (See Rule No. 2)Once you understand the five “rules of the game,” everything else falls into place.
In todays Episode Jonathan Streeter fills in for Bill Reel and takes RFM on a journey discussing the first miracle in Mormonism. They discuss the role that Demonic possessions and exorcisms play in religion generally and how such things have influenced Mormonism specifically
- Cold Open – Anatomy of a Performance Exorcism
- Exorcism discussion
- Why exorcism?
- Scriptural precedent
- Christ Example
- How can exorcism be explained?
- Psychology of belief and the reverse exorcism
- Why exorcism?
- Sociology of Possession: https://archive.org/details/policing-the-devil-and-possession
- The usefulness of Exorcism
- Demonize ideas dangerous to belief
- Example: Demonization of Doubt – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWsqNZgwIYE&t=10s
- Consolidate power
- Psychological utility
- Spiritual bypassing
- Facebook Adultery: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTM3M-51rZo&t=4s
- Demonize taboo behavior
- Demonize ideas dangerous to belief
- American roots of possession in Africa
- Examples of fraudulent exorcism
- Man answers cell phone in middle of possession: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6iJ_SZPjto
- The First Miracle of the Restoration
- Ensign Article: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1989/01/the-knight-family-ever-faithful-to-the-prophet?lang=eng
- History of the Church, 1:82–83: https://byustudies.byu.edu/further-study-lesson/volume-1-chapter-9/
Resources for background:
- Possession in Mormonism Podcast: https://mi.byu.edu/mip-71-taysom/
- Paper about possession and Exorcism in Mormonism: https://archive.org/details/satan-mourns-naked-upon-the-earth-locat
We once again develop this weeks episode around Director of the Church History Library, Keith Erekson. Except this time we address his expertise as a hoax expert. No Seriously, this guy is one of the worlds experts on discerning hoaxes. He has written articles, given presentations, and taught in academia about such helping people for years to to discern and deconstruct hoaxes. But catch this….. he has been unable to apply those same tools to his religious beliefs and that is the topic for tonight’s episode
Tonight RFM and Bill Reel take a look at how Director of the Church History Library, Keith A. Erekson, frames apologetics, inoculation, and publicly frames the criticisms of the Church. What tone does he use? What approach does he take with the critic and their criticisms? What approach does he take with the issues? How does he interact with the members of the Church in terms of transparency? Vulnerability? Honesty? and Forthrightness? Is this an improvement or is it a deeper layer of deception? We do this by examining his recent Fireside w/ multiple stakes published on the Fredrickson Stake Youtube Channel
Keith Erekson is the head of the vaults where historical items are saved in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. He and his two assistants are the only folks with unfettered access to these archives and storage.